As the eighties turned into the nineties, The Trash Can Sinatras emerged from their hometown base of Kilmarnock, Scotland as paragons of melodic songwriting, inventive arrangements and thoughtful, unusual lyrics. Although melody is a common thread running through the TCS canon, the band has been anything but static in its approach to its music. 1990's Cake bristled with bright, ebullient pop songs. 1993's I've Seen Everything was an altogether different sort of a record: dark, orchestral, organic. 1996's A Happy Pocket continues the trend. Light and breezy in some places; weird and wired in others. It fits in nicely with their other work, all the while staking out a territory of its own.

Terry Banks spoke with The Trash Can Sinatras on tour in Japan. Two interviews were conducted: one on September 21, 1996 (Tokyo) and one on September 24, 1996 (Osaka). For simplicity's sake, the two interviews have been combined. Present and accounted for were: Frank Reader (vocals and guitar), John Douglas (guitar, vocals and the occasional keyboard), Stephen Douglas (now bassist, until very recently drummer) and Paul Livingston (guitar). Fill-in drummer Skip Reid - he's unable to join on a permanent basis because of his work -- sat the interviews out.

TB: OK, first things first. Frank Reader this is your life! Jack Rabid has asked me to find the answer to a very important question: Why did you allow your subscription to The Big Takeover lapse?

FRANK: [laughing and leaning close to tape recorder] Hello Jack, it's Frank here. Sorry about my subscription. I was skint... but...anyway, hello my friend.

TB: Well, so be it. It's been a fairly lengthy wait for the new album, A Happy Pocket. Can you give us an idea of what the band has been up to on the recording front since the release of I've Seen Everything? The record's been done for a while, right?

STEPHEN: [frowning] Aye, it was finished last year. It's been just sitting around for a year basically.

TB: So, Go Discs has kind of stuffed you around?

JOHN: Yeah, more or less.

TB: I've heard strange rumors that PAUL WELLER wields some kind of weird influence at Go, and prioritizes the acts according to his own tastes. Ever heard anything like that?

JOHN: No... I don't think he really has much to do with Go Discs. I think he just sends them the records.

STEPHEN: Go has been taken over by Polygram. Did you know that?

TB: Yeah, I did. Sort of an "unfriendly take over" as they call them. How do you think that will affect you guys?

FRANK: I think it will affect us quite considerably

TB: Positively? Negatively?

FRANK: Positively in a negative way. It will positively get us off of a conglomerate and hopefully on to something else.

TB: What would be an example of the sort of label you'd like to end up on?

STEPHEN: The guy who founded Go, ANDY MCDONALD, may be starting up another label and something may come out of that.

TB: That'd be good. How'd did you first get involved with Go?

PAUL: We wrote them a letter years and years ago.

TB: You sent a tape then?

PAUL: [laughs] No, just a letter. We were naive.

TB: A novel approach: "Hello, we're a band. Sign us."

PAUL: Yeah, we said "We're a band. We've recorded an album. Do you want to put it out?" And then, about a year later, we went to see them and they said "Erm... no." [laughs]

JOHN: Then they came to see us at a gig and they were quite impressed. By that time we had a few more songs. And they kind of got to know us and came up to Scotland and sorted it out from there.

FRANK: They came to see us at a terrible little pub gig. We were supporting THE LILAC TIME.

TB: When did the band form?

STEPHEN: Ages ago... '86.

TB: You were a covers band to start with. What kind of stuff did you cover?

FRANK: Erm... "The Lady Is A Tramp" which at the time I thought was the most avant garde thing I'd ever heard. The rest of it was a lot of VELVET UNDERGROUND. The entire 1969 album, apart from a few things.

TB: Yeah, a great record. Y'know that song "Over You"?

FRANK: Aye, I like that album. It's all kind of loungy.

TB: What's happening with A Happy Pocket as far as a US release goes? Are you going to be touring there again?

FRANK: Hopefully...

JOHN: Because of all of this with Polygram, we don't have a record company in the US. Go was negotiating with Sony, or Andy McDonald was, and he has since left.

TB: So Go's deal with London is up in the air?

JOHN: It's all a bit sketchy. We don't know if it's going to come out in the US.

TB: Obviously, there have been some interesting line-up changes within the group with Stephen moving from drums to bass and with the departure of DAVID HUGHES, your bassist. So, he figured out that you wrote [TCS B-side] "Ask Davy" about him and quit, right?

ALL: [boisterous laughter]

PAUL: If you just rearrange the letters to "Ask Davy" you'd be closer.

TB: Sacked him, eh?

JOHN: We were just pissed off...

FRANK: I don't think Davy was that keen on the kind of thing we do. And when he saw he couldn't wield the kind of influence he wanted to, he stopped wielding any kind of influence. This is supposed to be fun and it stopped being that and, also, he's a wee bit violent. At first we thought it would be good to have someone who's bit more aggressive. And in the beginning he was writing stuff that was a little more abrasive -- things like "One At A Time" -- that were really good... He's a great writer, Davy. But he's really hard to get along with and, in the end, we decided it was not really worth the effort. We'd rather just have a bit of fun, really... The chemistry wasn't there.

STEPHEN: He didn't get the beers in basically

FRANK: [laughs] Aye, he's a bit stingy.

TB: [laughs] Then off with him! Does he still live in Kilmarnock?

FRANK: Oh yeah, we still see him around. He's alright... We don't really dislike him.

TB: OK, what's up with this Smiths Queen is Dead tribute? [A Sony UK release also featuring, among others, BOO RADLEYS, HIGH LLAMAS, SUPERGRASS and DIVINE COMEDY] If I'm not mistaken, there were only three songs left when you had your pick. You chose "I Know It's Over" -- which I think is great for you. Which other two did you pass on?

JOHN: We passed on "Cemetry Gates" and "Never Had No One Ever."

TB: You passed on "Cemetry Gates"!? I thought that would've been tailor made for you. Either that or "There Is A Light..."

JOHN: Nah, "Cemetry Gates" is too much of a Morrissey lick. It's got his opinions in it. "I Know It's Over" is more... open.

STEPHEN: We couldn't change it ["Cemetry Gates"] enough to make it good.

TB: What's your version [of "I Know It's Over"] like?

PAUL: Have you heard the theme to Coronation Street? [Hums tune]

FRANK: There's no guitars on it. There's a bit of brass on it. We kind of sampled a bit of GLENN MILLER, and a bit of some classical horns. And tried some other saxophone stuff of our own.

JOHN: It's good.

TB: Will it work its way into the live set?

FRANK: No, we couldn't really do it live. It's not a guitar song.

TB: In terms of roots, where do you think The Trash Can Sinatras' music comes from?

FRANK: [In tortured artist voice] The soul, man!

TB: [laughs] I would've thought there's a fairly strong Postcard influence, at least at the beginning.

STEPHEN: [shakes his head] Nah...

TB: I don't mean in a crappy, C86 sort of a way -- just more the sort of direction you're coming from.

FRANK: Well, if you're talking about Scottish stuff that's any good, I suppose Postcard's always going to be a part of that.

PAUL: And we come from the same place [as the Postcard scene] with the boredom...

FRANK: ...and pessimism -- and pessimism with a kind of like, archness. Y'know what I mean? It's comedy really, but there's a seriousness behind it.

TB: What do you think of EDWYN COLLINS' new stuff? He was sort of the nearly man of pop and now he's had quite a bit of success at the 11th hour.

FRANK: I think Edwyn's great! He's just great. [Breaks into rendition of "A Girl Like You"].

JOHN: Aye, he's a proper pop star.

STEPHEN: [unconvinced] ORANGE JUICE was much better, though. I mean FRANK SINATRA could sing some Orange Juice songs. Do y'know what I mean?

TB: I do, indeed. What is it about Scotland? There's you guys. There's Orange Juice. There's the first two AZTEC CAMERA albums. There's the first DEL AMITRI album in '85 -- they've been a write off since then, but that first album is really poetic [Frank and John nod in agreement]. There's even smaller stuff like THE ORCHIDS. It all seems to have a similar vibe. Is there something in the water?

FRANK: Ah, I know what you mean... but I don't think there is.

STEPHEN: There's crap as well.

JOHN: Well, Scotland's this weird place. It's filled with very intelligent people with fuck-all to do. And, eh... an easy thing to do is play music or play football or whatever. There's no jobs, there's nothing to do. The education's quite good, and the attitude's quite good -- but there's a lot of poverty and boredom in Scotland, and if you live there you've got to entertain yourself.

TB: Yeah... It's just unusual to hear so much of this incredibly melodic music with this kind of twisted, literate lyricism all coming out of the same place. And it almost seems to come mostly from western Scotland -- from Glasgow on over.

FRANK: Aye, the east coast is a bit cold.

JOHN: There's more money there.

FRANK: The east coast is a bit kind of speedy and the west coast is more hashy.

TB: Yeah, I like it. I can see that as a big pull-out quote in 60-point type: "The west coast is more hashy."

FRANK: [laughs] Well, I'll leave that up to you.

TB: You've done some music for a stage production of Trainspotting author IRVINE WELSH'S Marabou Stork Nightmares. What'd you do?

FRANK: We did "Born Free" and a Bond theme ["You Only Live Twice"], plus some instrumentals like "Outside" from the album.

TB: How'd it come about?

FRANK: The production company got in touch with us to do it. He [Welsh] wrote to us, and he must be a kind of fan, I suppose, and he just asked us if we'd provide some music. At first it was just instrumentals, but we ended up doing a couple of other things, too.

TB: Speaking of collaborative things, you were supposed to do something with PAUL BUCHANAN from THE BLUE NILE weren't you? What happened with that?

JOHN: We asked him if he'd be interested in doing something and he said yeah... and we thought "Oh, God what're we gonna do?" [laughs]

FRANK: We just asked blindly, really.

JOHN: At the time we had stuff to do, and we didn't really have anything to collaborate on, so nothing really happened. It's a kind of an open invitation, something may still come of it.

TB: You guys are also into XTC, having covered "Senses Working Overtime" on record and done "Love On A Farmboy's Wages" live.

FRANK: Aye, I do like XTC. Skylarking's incredible. It just amazes me.

STEPHEN: Ah, I dunno. I like XTC, but...

FRANK: I can see why some people don't like XTC. But I love English Settlement, stuff like that...

JOHN: English Settlement's definitely good.

TB: You guys have a pretty rabid fan base, especially in the US, one of the manifestations of which is an e-mail discussion list that's produced a limited edition 21-song CD of out of print B sides, and also a compilation of your videos and TV appearances. What do you make of all this?

JOHN: It's great, it's incredible. They seem like they're as passionate about our music as we are.

FRANK: Yeah, you look at some of things they do and then look at the record company and kind of wonder what's going on.

TB: Frank, you're now playing rhythm guitar [a 12-string] on every song, whereas you used to just play it on only one or two. Do you miss sort of thrashing around and throwing pints on people like you did when you only sang?

FRANK: [Laughs]

JOHN: [Laughs] It still happens.

TB: How do you like playing guitar live? A lot of people say singers feel embarrassed just to sing and they'd kind of like a guitar to hide behind. Do you agree?

FRANK: I'm not gonna say it doesn't have anything to do with being embarrassed, 'cos I'm very self-conscious. But I didn't start playing guitar just because of that, I think it adds quite a bit... At first we thought having three guitars would be a problem, but there are no rules. You just have to do what you want. That's the great thing about not being liked - or not selling loads - you get used to it and you can do whatever you want. I like playing guitar and I like playing and performing chaotically. I think it adds something to what we do.

TB: Not so much tonight, but the other times I've seen the band play, Frank has been really drunk - or at least it looked that way. And there was this really out of control element to what you were doing. [Note: When TCS played the 9:30 Club in Washington, DC in '91, a well-oiled Reader broke a mike stand, attempted karate kicks at audience members who rubbed him the wrong way, and, challenged an audience member who threw a coin at him to a fight.] At the time, I thought you came across that way because your music is really beautiful and melodic, but it has this kind of punky, aggressive undercurrent, and you didn't want to be defined as just a "pretty" or "poetic" band. You wanted to get across that other side, as well.

FRANK: That's it. That's absolutely right. It has to do with our influences. I mean, my favorite singer is MARK E. SMITH and it's all about trying to get that across...

TB: [In caustic Mark Smithesque tone] Trash Cans-ah! Kilmarnock-ah!

FRANK: [Laughs] That's right, you've got it. But... we are kind of lulled by prettiness. We love prettiness, but there's another side to what we do.

TB: Who're some other singers you admire?

FRANK: DUSTY SPRINGFIELD. People who can put something across. I like depth and warmth and richness... I hate the current stuff that's in Britain that's so shallow and thin.

STEPHEN: And in Scotland, Glasgow especially, there's always been this big kind of white soul thing and it's just shit. Punk is where it all came for us. That's our real influence. Despite the fact that we don't actually sound like that.

JOHN: It's mostly the punk attitude that we like.

FRANK: Aye, I mean me and John are older than those two [Stephen and Paul]. John's probably punk, I'm probably new wave, and they're probably Smiths-era.

TB: You've worked with a number of producers. What's the role of the producer for you? Some people want someone to come in and work on arrangements and sort of knock the songs into shape. Other people just want someone to engineer the sessions. What do you look for?

STEPHEN: Just to try and bring something to the music that we can't. When we worked with JOHN LECKIE [For Cake in 1990] he made kind of an aside to one of the guys at the record company and said 'I'll work with the Trash Can Sinatras anytime because they just produce themselves.' Usually, all of our songs are really structured and it's just a matter of getting sounds. Leckie's great. He's the only producer we've worked with that's actually done something.

TB: RAY SCHULMAN produced I've Seen Everything. How was he?

STEPHEN: Yeah, he was good as well, I suppose.

JOHN: Then there was DON GEHMAN [laughs and adopts nasal accent] 'I want a pizza! I want some smokes!'

FRANK: [Laughs] He sent us out for pizza.

TB: When did you record with him?

FRANK: Right after with we signed with Go Discs, before Cake. We've made some really bad decisions.

TB: You worked with STEVE LILLYWHITE also. But that didn't really fly.

FRANK: Aye, that was just a personality clash. It just didn't work, he stopped turning up. He knew things weren't happening...

TB: Was this in Kilmarnock?

STEPHEN: No chance, it was a really expensive studio that JIMMY PAGE used to own.

FRANK: He's [Lillywhite] a slick kind of "rock" guy who's doing his drugs in the studio. The whole scene was debauched [laughs]. And it was this really posh environment and there we were with all these songs about unemployment and shagging dogs.

TB: Shagging dogs? I didn't know things had got that bad for you guys.

FRANK: Well, really it's ["Killing The Cabinet"] about dogs shagging each other.

TB: You were working on a cover of Orange Juice's "In A Nutshell" earlier, and your sound man is DAVID HENDERSON who recorded Ostrich Churchyard [Orange Juice's long-delayed debut set] and some of the early Postcard stuff. How'd you hook up with him?

STEPHEN: Our old manager knew him, and we met him through people in Glasgow.

FRANK: He's great, we're lucky to have found him, but we didn't get him for that reason [the Postcard connection]. We just needed somebody... It's funny, we're just this Kilmarnock band and people say we've never made the big move to London, but we've never even made the move to Glasgow. So we're really isolated and we don't really know anyone. So, we keep having to creep into Glasgow to find people. David's great for live sound and live is where I think we're best. We can't always get it across in the studio. Live is closer to the truth - the horrible, disgusting truth.

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